Kara-Moon Forum

Oren and I are working on a track which we would like to give you all a little preview of. I sent him a short demo track a few days ago to suggest a basic idea, and he took out his guitar and this is what he made of it...  :;

I should add that this is only the first version, we still need to sort out loads of stuff before we consider it final but we thought it'd be fun to share the process with you all. Enjoy!

..being a guitar player myself, I thought that bit from :50 to :55 was so extremely tasty..breathless..

I'm glad you guys finally got together on something..keep up the good work..I can't wait to hear what the two of you end up with here..thanks for sharing that with us, Marc.

Wyatt

Wyatt,

That little harmony riff tickled my fancy, too (it happened by accident when two tracks of incessant flailing fortuitously lined up, but don't say anything >:D)!

Marc's synth tracks actually sound much better than this, but we had to squash them quite a bit to get this little sketch done. It's so easy to play guitar, with Marc playing/programming all the other instruments so artfully  :-*.

Thanks for your encouragement,

Oren.

 :o
This is classic stuff, guys!  8)

 ;)
James

Interesting idea you guys have here  :-

k

This is a classy track, and it shows your excellent musical taste.
Very effective playing, I like this collab thing
well done

Cheers

Very nice work, gentlemen. Congrats.

Tasty guitar playing there, Oren.  Enjoyed that.

That's the beauty of using tracks that were all played in the same space in time, with the same bit of music..every now and then something ethereal happens..it is so cool when your responses to that same passage get along so well together..hard to duplicate the sheer spontaneity of that.


Yes, Marc is quite a synth man; I am impressed. You guys are each bringing a lot to the table here.

Wyatt

PS..yeah, guitar is easy to play..but only once you have learnt how.  ;D

..I tell folks who want to learn guitar that it is real hard and takes a long time..you really have to enjoy the trip, because there is no destination..then if they still want to have a go of it, I figure they will probably manage.

Wow, where's that blushing icon when you need it... :) Thanks for the compliments guys, glad you like the track and what I did on it. In all honesty, I'm very much in awe of what Oren did on it as I love guitars and how expressive and powerful they are in the right hands.

Yep, you found the right hands!
Very nice sounding piece, guys.
 Should be on the next CD..

You and Oren compliment each other well. 

Well done guys. Very nice style blending. Got yur geetar screaming thar, Oren  ;)

Thanks for your favourable comments, guys!

There's a certain freedom when working with a fellow like Marc who is already a very capable engineer and producer. He has his own well-developed sound and style of composition...

...so I can just relax and go bog-wild with the guitar :;

He's just sent me the re-worked synth tracks that develop the theme a little further - beautiful stuff!

Any particular reason why this song is only in the ogg format?

Thom

Seems to be the format a few people are leaning toward here.
Try winvorbis- a free decoder that turns the files back into wave files;
http://winvorbis.stationplaylist.com/

There's some discussion possible as to whether ogg sounds better, which I really don't want to go into here as I haven't researched it that well and in high enough resolution I think both sound good enough for enjoying music. Since mp3 is the more popular format I usually use this for a final format. In this case, however, I used ogg since that's one of the more compact output formats for Cubase Studio 4, which I use. And since these are in-between versions I didn't bother to make an mp3 version.

However, if you use Windows, you can install the Ogg vorbis codecs which will allow the normal media player to play back these files: http://www.illiminable.com/ogg/downloads.html (http://www.illiminable.com/ogg/downloads.html). Installing these has made working with ogg files a whole lot simpler for me since I don't have to convert them for a simple listen, or launch a different player.

This is a really enjoyable track. Thanks guys an excellent collaboration as it stands!

Incidentally, my limited experience is that (especially at low bitrates) oggs have less of that curious phasing effect you sometimes get on high frequences such as cymballs etc.

Heh, that might explain why I don't notice it that much; I love putting a slight phaser effect on hi hats to liven those parts up! ;D

Hmm..I think I posed a couple of screenshots a while back..showing a spectral frequency display of .ogg vs. mp3.

It shows that while they are both the same amplitude, the .ogg file has more actual frequency content. The .ogg file actually looks better, too..fuller and smoother.

Wyatt

I personally think there is more 'crosstalk' in OGG, causing midrange oscillations..small but detectable. Something causes it to have a certain sound..

I looked at the website that offers the conversion briefly,& it seems there's a couple different downloads to choose from & I'm assuming that there is probably a version that is more appropriate for my operating system...not sure what direction to go to?

If ogg has better sound quality,then companies should start manufacturing portable ogg players-instead of mp3's! ;D

Thom

When I became aware of the open-source phenomenon, and the community of resourceful individuals who develop/support the software 8), Ogg Vorbis was one of the first items that caught my attention. Because the concept of a constantly evolving array of software tools developed "by musicians for musicians" in a freely interactive setting suits my personal inclinations, I tend to promote the idea, and support its continued activity.

The question of whether Ogg Vorbis is better or inferior to MP3 has been examined by a lot of capable audio enthusiasts, with no definitive conclusion reached, partly due to the fact that there are several versions of MP3 (Fraunhofer, LAME, etc.) and also due to the fact that Ogg Vorbis is in a constant state of development.

To my ear, they are just different, and it's a matter of personal taste which one suits the listener. In North America, we are more accustomed to MP3, so it would likely sound "better" to us. Europeans, with more exposure to Ogg Vorbis, would be inclined to prefer its particular qualities.

My own position is that I'll support/promote the Ogg Vorbis format whenever possible, with the idea in mind that with continued support, it will gradually evolve to the point where it will provide a demonstrably superior listening experience.

(and Thom, I use the LAME codecs for both MP3 and Ogg Vorbis encoding/decoding)

http://winlame.sourceforge.net/

Oren.

Yeah.... well... I remember 15 years ago that OS2 was much better than Windows... So what happened? Well... it's always the product with the better marketing that's winning. So I'm not sure if we'll see portable ogg players...  but I probaly would get one !  ;)

Moon

I believe that a number of portable players already support it, along with wma and such. But like I said in my last mail, after I installed the codecs I mentioned (which is a simple installer) I just play them back in windows like any other mp3 so working with it is easy enough now.

Yes Marc,
I used the installer you recommended in this thread to upgrade Windows Media Player a few months ago when Bob (rharv) mentioned it. Works very well, and simplifies playback.

I was not trying to imply mp3 was better than ogg. They both have their points both good and bad.  It would be nice f ogg kept improving, but LAME is also sourceware, Oren.  At least they claim it is.

Hi Bob,

..if you say so, I take your word for it..in a heartbeat.

I can't hear the difference..but I see a difference..

I can't hear the difference between 24/96 and 16/44 either....so I stick to CD redbook.

I don't have a dog in this fight..but just an observation:

Isn't it weird, that now that such high quality audio is so available to even us peons..
.. that the fastest growing profit sector in the music business is mp3...Yikes!!
Is there something wrong with this picture??

Ahh the 21st century..where style finally triumphs over substance.   :(

Wyatt

Yeah, the folks who work on the LAME project do a nice job, but sometimes it seems to me that they're tripping all over themselves trying to work around (or avoid) patent infringements.

In many ways it seems that starting from scratch (like the Ogg Vorbis crew did) is the best choice. Just go with a completely new format and never have to worry about legalities.

Marc...thanks for putting the link for the ogg files!
I've been trying to listen, with no success, until now.

Very tasty!  The music framed Oren nicely.
I also agree, the parts @ :50 & on, were right on.
Also some nice overtones on guitar.
Good listening.

Mick

Occasionally .ogg works better than MP3 for collabs. Some sequencers have trouble lining up MP3's correctly from the beginning of the project.

Fred's point is a deciding factor, actually.
Mp3 codecs do throw off the initial start time; it's documented.
LAME attempts to compensate for it by averaging their test results...but you can imagine how exact that is after a few different codecs and generations become involved in a collb project!

Precisely why I like .ape- perfect copies every time I used it.
Hopefully these other formats will work as well.

I agree..once I tried making loops with an mp3..haha..big mistake..it always adds a little squib of silence to the beginning of the selection.

Ever since I heard of .ape files here, I use them exclusively, because I would rather stick with the original .wav files.

I can always ruin it later on by making an mp3 out of it.

Wyatt

Another interim version: synth tracks reworked by Marc, and some more guitar...

Once again, Marc's keyboard work is mixed from a compressed file, so it will sound much better in the final version ;)

Here it is in 128Kbit Ogg Vorbis.

(some of the guitar removed for better flow)

...and 160 Kbit MP3

(also with shoddy guitar bits extracted  :D)

 :o
STUNNING
 :o

Thanks, James!

There is just a bit too much guitar in there - now, only a matter of deciding where to trim it. (maybe where the shoddy stuff is :D?)

I didn't commented on the song yet... only there's not much comment to give unless to say this is a great production. I like the result.
I don't know if there is a lot af guitar or to much of guitar, sounds OK to me...
There's also a good variation in the song. Personally, I would change the ending a bit: the song is full of inspiration, and I was expecting a more powerfull ending instead of letting it die in the end... uhrrrr... if you know what I mean...

Moon

I agree with Moon which is an exception when it comes to music, the song is great.
Not only it is a great arrangement, it's allso a perfect example of good mixing of synth's and 'real' guitar  8)  which isn't easy.

Now sorry, as usual a bit of constructive critism
I think the guitar is in some spot a bit to much laid back, with this kind of music you realy have to be on the beat, even a bit before if possible. Luckily, Oren is VERY consistent in his playing, so it should be quit easy to slide some of those guitar parts a couple of msec's back in time. Believe me, it is just a matter of mesc's to get the right feeling.

@Marc, I we will see each other in Brussels, i ordered my tickets today.

k

Okay,

So, shift the guitar up to get it on the beat, and concoct a more dramatic ending.... This can be done :D

(let me confer with Marc)

Thanks for commenting, Kara and Moon  8)!

This just gets better and better :;

A small comment, could the piano be a bit more prominent (3:30-3:50), not necessarily louder, slightly brighter tone maybe?

Yes Will,

I'd like to hear it emphasized also.

 Marc has selected a really tasteful piano sound, and there must be a way to bring it out in the mix while maintaining that superb tone. Even a 1dB boost may be enough... :)

Oren.

Oren sent over his great guitar tracks and I created this new version with them, incorporating some new details... It's not really final yet, the ending probably needs some more work, but it's getting really close! Enjoy!

Hold on, I'll just play that again...

Hang on, want to check out that guitar...

Just a minute...

Now that piano...

Hmm, think I need to hear the guitar again...

Not quite sure but...

Vocoder?

 8) :- O0

This seriously needs a proper title.

+1  ;)

Very nice new version, fawless ! I like the new guitar melodies

Production and Sounds are even better than the last version.
I like the synth sounds here, (although they aren't much different) I always take your tracks as reference material for my pads. :envy:
This collab-thing works great

Cheers

Oi you two! O0

When are we going to hear the final version with a proper title? ;D

P.S.

You could find yourselves reported to RAFOPITS

(Royal Association For Overt Promoting Inappropriately Titled Songs)

Will,

Marc is in the process of fine-tuning his synth track.

If you'll listen carefully to his vocoder snippet, you may hear the words "no dominion".
A concept we have been knocking around is that the song portrays a person in emotional turmoil who gradually sorts things out, and finishes on a triumphant note. The proposed title, Hell Has No Dominion, puts forth the idea that no matter how messed up a person may become during life's journey, redemption is always attainable.

What do you think - will it fly?

DEEP!


Hell yes!

M

Hilarious, Mick  :D

Ha! Like it ;D

(both the title and Mick's comment)

Well, after taking ages I finally got a new and possibly final mix here. Oren, let me know what you think. If you like it I'll upload the tracks without the guitar so you can do your mixing magic on the track. Of course, all the rest of you are also invited to share your thoughts. I worked mainly on the details, including:

- Dynamic panning on the long bass notes at the start (and near the ending).
- A new synth solo near the end. I didn't like my previous one, this one is more subtle.
- Synth E-Piano chords and arpeggio's at various parts, most obvious the arpeggio's at the start and end which also have a subtle glass organ sound playing a simple melody.
- Some added delays on the percussive arpeggio's with panning built in to liven that up a bit more.
- Small volume and eq adjustments.

Hope you all like it!

This is certainly one hell of a song  :o
I know allways some litle thing to say about a song, but here I'm speechless.
It's perfect  ::), i can't think of any comment, beside that it is perfect
Even that bassline is good (personnal joke between Marc and me)

Nothing else to say; I'm listening for the 4th time here

k
 

Wow... this is amazing ! Almost speechless....: KM is certainly making progress here. It's great to see how collabs end in such professional end result. I only have one major advise here: keep making music !!!!

Moon

Marc,

These improvements were worth waiting for! Some of the most tasteful synth work I've ever heard :-

(yes, do send me your finished track, and I'll mix in the guitar)

Actually Marc and I discussed the possibility of each mixing our own version of the song, so I've sent him all the guitar tracks to edit and mix at his discretion. Hopefully, we'll end up with two finished versions of the song and post them both here for your comparison. Fun!

Thanks guys, glad you all liked it so much! Oren, I'll upload the track as a wav to the ftp like with the other Oldfield-style track!

Oren, I uploaded the wav to the ftp; please remove it when you got it.

Somehow ths still manages to improve with each version. It is decidedly O0

I know it has probably all been said, but this is fabulous stuff!!

..and to think we have two more versions to look forward to..

..how lucky can we get, eh?

  :)

Wyatt

Actually, my mp3 here is my more-or-less final version, but I'm really looking forward to Orens final version too. Should sound great after being done by the mastering master himself!

The Linux DAW has undergone a revision to process data internally at 32 bits(floating-point) / 96,000Hz. I've taken Marc's 24/48 synth mixdown file and loaded it (along with all the original individual guitar tracks) into Ardour. Now I'll start a complete new mixdown to see how the system handles 96,000Hz.
Then, with Audacity set up to process at 32/96, I'll master the mixdown and export the finished file at 24bits/48,000Hz.

 I also want to see how successfully FLAC will compress the 24/48 file for transfer via e-mail and FTP.

So, it could be a while yet, but Marc's synth track was so good that I thought this would be the perfect project to "shake down" the new Linux DAW and finalize the processing routine for all future mixing/mastering.

Work, work, work.... :D

Play, play, play.... :D

There, I fixed that for you Oren ;D

Is this guy great to work with or what? :D

+1

absolutely outstanding

I'm finding it very hard to believe you can improve on this!

I can think of one improvement...

I'd still like to know what to call it :D

Otherwise  O0 :- :;

Will,

I'm doing a re-mix of the guitars....and hoping for my giant Englishman (no, not you...the other giant Englishman) Daran to add a little spoken-word part before I do a final mixdown. (you can hear his stylish delivery in the MP3 below....also newly re-mastered)
 The proposed lyrics: "Hell has no dominion." and  "We are innocent."
"Hell Has No Dominion" is the working title of the song, and I'm still liking it.

Great track, wonderful guitars and the vocals have a very warm sound, how were they recorded? Drums feel like they could be a tad punchier (although I was listening on headphones so that might be a wrong observation). Very cool atmosphere but a bit of a sudden ending. In any case, great stuff!

I am kind of wondering why it is in this thread though... ;)

Marc,

There is a spot in the song where a spoken-word lyric could sound very dramatic. Your vocoder vocal is very effective, and I wanted to try a couple of lines from Daran Whysall, my resident poet, in the mix. That MP3 is just an example of Daran's spectacular delivery.

The vocal recording was done in my little apartment. It's a Shure SM58 (hand-held) processed through my trusty Digitech RP12 which I use as a mic preamp. I have fashioned a preset called "vocal" ;D with some EQ and a noise gate that makes the SM58 sound good in most situations.

By the way, mixdown is going very slowly because I'm learning Ardour along the way, but it is sounding fabulous at the new 96000 Hz sampling rate :;

Sounds very intrigueing - I can't wait to hear it. Some more lyric suggestions:

'I'll choose my own path...'
'Walking a fine line here...'
'Don't think you know me - don't think I'm giving up.'

Or stuff like that? Although being a resident poet he'll already have some ideas of his own here.

I'm getting a 'Shadow on a Wall' vibe here - very cool! ;)

Daran is very excited by the prospect, also!

Oren,

I heard that vocal work before and liked it then..and I can appreciate it
so much better now. Strictly awesome! The best I have heard.

Thanks for sharing about how you set up a 'vocal' patch..it gave me an idea.

When I do vocals, there is an amp setting that works well for me.there is some
nasty little amp noise that hitch-hikes along with it, but that is something I
actually *do* know how to deal with..so it works ok.

It never occurred to me that I might sit down and make a custom vocal channel on my amp,
mostly because I don't know how to.. but I am looking forward to the challenge of it. It
just hit me about a half hour after I read your post..like how cool would that be, eh?? 

Your work has always inspired me to reach for lovely sounds. 

Wyatt

Always a treat to feel that vibe from Oklahoma...

...I can hardly wait to hear the "Wyatt Fender" pre-set in action :-

Superb track !
among the best heard here in the auditorium.
A great committment of nice composition and excellent production.
I like this track and others gems from here more than cold commercial stuff

Cheers

Thanks for commenting, L.R. This site has an amazing collection of talented individuals (look in the mirror, for example...), many of them already mature and capable with their skills. And it's getting better as we learn from each other.... 8)

Here is the final mix of our collaboration. Marc may choose to do his own mix also, just to take the song in that JX8P direction ;D.
I've taken the very best of Marc's spoken-word vocal contribution and the very best of Daran's vocal to give the song some more interest.
Levels are still not final - I think the guitar needs to come down a bit, particularly in spots where it tends be overbearing. Tonal qualities seem about right...

Recommendations?

Since we are talking about a mix of the masters of www.yourbestsound.com, I'll be nutpicking here  ;)
To anyone else I propably would say, great ! But I simply expect the best from you
So here we go, and mind you this are only my observations, take them with a grain of salt  ;D

- I think it isn't a matter of levels that should be improved. To my ears it's more a matter of reverb or type of reverb used. The difference of type of reverb on the solo guitar track and the keyboards track and drumtrack is to pronounced, I think. You can hear it best 3:30 where you play together with the piano and allso at 4:20. It's difficult to explain and as such probably even more difficult to fit...

- I'm not a drummer, but aren't the drumrolls (on the toms) around 4:55 running in the wrong sense in the stereo spectrum ? I would expect those to go from left to right

- The last one, and this is just personal and has nothing to do with the quality of the song. I don't like the vocal sample at 2:03, it shocks a bit propably due to the crackling noise that comes with it and IMHO it doesn't add much to the song. Mind you, this is difficult to judge, it shocked me only on the first listening of the song, on the next one I tought it wasn't that bad, because I knew it was comming. At 5:15 the vocals fit much better, and in the intro they are perfect.

k

Ermm... Not sure if you meant to say that, but I think you meant to say you're n_i_tpicking. Not nutpicking. ;)

 :-[  ::)  ;D  >:D

k

OK, cool, I'm on it. O0
(nut picking is a respected profession - nothing embarassing about that...and the "u" key is right beside the "i" key... ;D)

Here is the new mix, with reverb applied to the guitars so they'll integrate with Marc's synths, Daran's vocal moved to a more appropriate location, and all the vocals reverberated so they sound like more of an integral part of the production.
Hell Has No Dominion...

And as MP3... ;)

Edit: a freshly mastered version of each format has been uploaded with adjustments to EQ and compression.

Excelent !!
The changes you made make a big difference, the mix sounds great now  8)
The balance between synths and guitar is perfect now, reference point is 4:15.
The vocals come in in the perfect spots now to integrate with the song.


Great job from 'da master' !!

Great song too, what an energy it has.

k

+1

You never cease to amaze me.

8)

Wyatt

Thankyou, gentlemen. Let us just hope that the title is accurate, and there's a fighting chance for three old sinners like us.... :D

In a word...
Great!

In two words:
Real Great O0

Thankyou, Will!

In two or three days, it deserves a proper mastering job, once the ears have rested. This song is mixed mostly on AKG 240 headphones (for detail work), but listening and tweaking tonal values is best done on speakers - with reference recordings handy to compare the sound with commercial studio releases. (Chris Rea is one of my favorite recording artists/engineers/producers)

Another +1

They're not just pretty faces, these two. Are they?

 ;D ::)

I’m real late to this party but I’m sure glad I came :-

All I can say is WOW  :;

Excellent job gentlemen  :- :; :-

Thanks, Longhair!
I still haven't finished this one up, but now I have some extra time... ::)... it will get done soon!