Kara-Moon Forum

This is the final, polished version of Oren's and my collaboration.

I had hoped to put both mp3 and ogg versions here, but the upload limit seems to be for the combined files not individual ones :(

This has so much emotional impact..stunning.

8)

Wyatt

Will & Oren,

The marriage between the chord progressions & guitar riffs are a beautiful union...reminiscent of tunes such as "Wicked Game" from Chris Isaak and "Big Log" from Robert Plant :-
However though,I was'nt expecting drums to come in,as they just seemed to drop in unannounced and the drum patterns just did not seem to fit the style-as I think the drums have too much of a hard rock feel.
I think the drums would fair better if you double up on the high hat and have a softer,cocktail lounge-type country bass/snare pattern going.

Actually,this song would be great just as an ambient piece-without drums,as I think it would stand strong without any percussion whatsoever.

A very pretty song though..I really enjoyed this one. 8)

Thom

Wyatt - thanks! Will's synth track struck an emotional chord for me the very first time I heard it.

Thom - I agree with you about the superfluous nature of the percussion track. It's an interesting exercise in resurrecting John Bonham for one
              more stirring performance, but it really does not serve the song.

I am rather fond of the drum track, myself.

If the song were shorter, it might do fine without it..

..but as it stands, rather than hitting cruising altitude @ 1:10 or so,
the drum track comes in smoothly and gives it lift..the drama continues
to build.

For a five minute song it is a real plus, and prevents it from becoming too
long for itself.

8)

Wyatt

I'm in the camp of 'against' that drum track, IMO it isn't up to par with the emotional contest of this song  :o
To have a drum track that fits that's style of music, you'll need Nick Mason  ;)

But what a great song  :;
 
k

This is an interesting debate.
When Will first posted this tune I decided to have a try at adding something to it. I ran through it dozens of times with different instrumentation and eventually gave up as I couldn't get to grips with the *timing*.
To me the addition of the drum track gives a whole new life to the piece. I love it! Maybe those who don't like the drums should have a go at reworking it from the original. That may bring the appreciation. (http://bestsmileys.com/thinking/4.gif)

 ;)
James

I'm actually very surprised by all this :o

As I think everyone knows by now, percussion is a major bogeyman for me. Nevertheless I think Oren did a good job here. I don't know whether or not it could be better, but I am fairly sure the tune would be poorer without it.

Having said that, I think it is the guitar that changes an interesting chord progression into a real statement.

Wooow
I was listening this one from poor laptop-speakers and I switched to headphones and now I'm sure you did a pretty good job on it.
The keyboard layering kind of sound with that clean guitar are recalling me of the Led Zep's 'In through the out door' sound and feel
It goes on very well like a natural evolution and it's really enjoyable from our musicians' point of view as well as for the casual listener...
Well done

Cheers

Wyatt - I'm fond of the drum track, too :D, and it does provide added interest....

Kara - a talented percussionist could lay down a drum track that complemented the existing timing - as it
         is, some of the hits are way off the beat, giving it a "mechanical" flavor.

James - the drums are a nice touch, and Hydrogen does as good a job as any percussion program, but... is
           this bit of programming up to the standards of the other instruments?

Will - how about I mix one without the drums, and we go with two versions? ............really ;D

L.R. - pretty cool, eh?  ::) ;)

If that's what people want, I'd be quite happy about the idea. Indeed I'd be happy about any other ideas people have for this track.

I don't know if it is actually going to happen or not, but I suspect that two entirely different perspectives might very well turn out to be two very beautiful songs, each in their own way.

8)

Wyatt

Taking into consideration the constructive criticism offered in this thread (as we would all be wise to do...  ;)), I've nearly finished two new versions of "Empires of Dust".

No percussion version:
Removing the drums results in an elegant production, and I took the opportunity to lower some of the mid-range (750 - 1250Hz) frequencies in the guitar track so it blends better with Will's ZynAddSubFX synth.

Version with percussion:
In an effort to better integrate the drums, there is now less (shorter duration) reverb on both the drums and guitar, and the over-all level of the drums is cut by about 15%. Also, the above mentioned mid-range cut is applied to the guitar.

I just need time to EQ the files for MP3 - then I'll post them both here so they can be compared with the original. Thanks to everyone who contributed recommendations; that is the true value of this forum.

Looking forward to this  8)

k

I am looking forward to these too.

This song made a space for itself in my ears,
and then just moved in and made itself at home.     ;D

Question:  Did you add the drums afterwards, or
did the song start out in the beginning with the
drum track?

Glad you've persevered; this one is worth it.

8)

Wyatt

Well I thought this thread had gone quiet ???

We started out with the chord progression, then Oren added the guitar. After that we footled about a bit with BPM etc and Oren added the drums.

After that it was all footling ;D

Further footling....without drums ;D

Now with mix and EQ footled, but drums included.... :-*

Thanks Oren..this is really interesting to me.

I still like the drum version the best..and frankly I did expect to, especially
considering that that version was already hard-wired into my head.

What I didn't expect was how beautiful the drumless version is as well.

I can't presume to be objective right now as to a comparison, but I can say
with certainty that if I had only heard the drumless version, I would have
never thought there was anything else needed.

Having two versions is definitely a win-win situation; I love this sweeping
sonic landscape.

8)

Wyatt

Thanks for listening, Wyatt. Each of them has a certain charm...

Did you hear what sounds to me like a mid-range "warbling" in the MP3, particularly near the beginning where Will's synth is the only instrument?

I've noticed this in some of my other songs when converted to MP3, and I'm wondering if it stems from the release time I have set for my final limiter in JAMin (Linux mastering application). Default release time for JAmin is 50 milliseconds, but I have it set to 10 milliseconds to achieve maximum responsiveness. Is this release time setting too fast? Could it be causing a "choppy" response in the limiter that creates the faint disturbance in the MP3?

Advice and recommendations gratefully accepted....help! :D

Hmm, and double Hmm. I hadn't noticed this before but it is definitely there, and even more noticable when doing an A/B test against the WAV file. It doesn't seem to happen with the ogg version. I have no real idea as to what to do about this. Would changing the bit-rate make any difference?

P.S.
Have we possibly over-footled? ::)

True, Ogg Vorbis doesn't emphasize the phenomenon the way MP3 does.
Bob (rharv) and I have mulled over the question of an "ideal" bit-rate for MP3, and 160Kbits/sec seems to be the most advantageous combination of small file size and acceptable sound quality. When the source file is righteous, 160Kbits/sec works very well....

As to over-footling, Ardour doesn't actually tamper with the original tracks, it just maps out a combination of automated changes, and applies them each time the files are played back. Then, when the mix is recorded to stereo, the effects, EQ, and levels are included in that track, but all the original material remains unchanged.
Therefore, unfootling is very easy, as is refootling, and retro-footling. Cool, eh?

Unless someone comes up with a recommended number for me, I'll try a re-master with the final limiter set to a release time of 100 milliseconds to see if it smooths things out. Sound reasonable?

Wish I could help you with this.

I have often had problems with mp3s, and sometimes it was a *really* gross problem..like for example ruining several bars of a trumpet duet so badly I couldn't recognize it.

..160 fixed most of mine in the past,and seemed pretty optimim for mp3, but when I had to go up to 256 before "Mazatlan" worked at all, (yep..192 didn't fix it either),  I just switched it to .ogg.


8)

Wyatt

Release time of mastering limiter on original wave source file altered to 50 milliseconds...encoded at 160Kbits/sec......

Release time of 100 milliseconds...encoded at 160Kbits/sec... Care to compare :D?

Thanks for these comments. I needed something make me smile :D

This is very strange, they each sound different, but I can't say which is the better (or worse)

What mp3 encoder are you using? If its lame, try the following command in a terminal window:
lame --longhelp

It is mind boggling what options are availalble :o

When I put them side by side and magnify the wave forms, there are
obvious differences, but listening to them repeatedly has not left me
with anything useful to say in contrasting them.

8)

Wyatt

Will,
Yes, LAME is the MP3 codec. I'm still not good with the Linux terminal, but that is on my list of open-source chores. May I contact you in the event of an emotional melt-down?
(...looks like you'll have another opportunity to jam with the K-M crew in December :; ...all is not lost)

Wyatt,
It sounds like the "warble" phenomenon is not a function of limiter release time, because it occurs at approximately the same severity at 10, 50, and 100 milliseconds.

It's time to listen to my mastered file again to see if there is any hint of the phenomenon before MP3 encoding.
Also, I'll give it a go at 256Kbits /sec, just to see if the greater dynamic range will cure it.

Thanks to both of you for listening!

I could not discern any substantive difference in quality.


You can scarcely imagine the difference that made for "Mazatlan"..my whole head went on tilt. Yes, it fixed it for me, but if I have to go that high, then I will look for a better solution..ogg did it, and with a smaller file size.

I am sure you will sleuth this one out, and I certainly hope you do. "Empires of Dust" is an archetype, bro.
It got in my head and I hear things differently.  Every now and then that happens. Good to recognize it when it does.

Synergy, baby!

8)

Wyatt

Wyatt, could we have a bit more positive vibe, please.....maybe with the big picture in mind?  :D :-*

Yeah..OK..sorry for being so negative.   ;D

8)

Wyatt

Encoded to Ogg Vorbis, quality:4(128Kb/sec)

It sounds good. Same source file as the MP3s.
Maybe it's time to do some more research on the LAME codec...

Edit...seem my posting under "Studio Tips" - http://www.kara-moon.com/forum/index.php?topic=2203.0

OK bro..as of right now this last effort is the
official copy on my desktop.

Excellent stuff!    :-

8)

Wyatt