Kara-Moon Forum

My old Athlon 1700+ running on XP Pro, has a Creative Labs SB Audigy Platinum audio card, and 1024 mb of RAM, on a Gigabyte motherboard. At the time it was assembled, it was the best (consumer grade) music computer money could buy. Now, it has difficulty processing large digital audio files and running the various plug-ins.

I have some cash set aside for a new computer, and would like to set it up with open-source software in mind. There's no hurry, because the old one is still grinding out the tunes, so I thought it might be fun to "build" it right here. Remember - I'm a guitar player ::) with very limited computer skills. Hopefully we can come up with a hardware/software package that will do the job reliably, and without a lot of tweeking. Once we have a concensus on the "right" build, I'll assemble the unit, load it up, and we'll see how it performs.

Recommendations on where to start?

Since I'm interested in Linux since some time, I can start...

One of the most simple solutions to give it a try is 'Studio to go' : http://www.studio-to-go.com/

They have a 'live' of the whole setup. The advantage of a live CD is that you can boot your PC from the CD just to try what works and won't work. It won't change anything to the PC.
With Studio on the go, you get a full daw, OS & multiple sequencer & audio applications. See : http://www.studio-to-go.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=18&Itemid=59

One of the big issues is the support of the audio card, there are a couple of Soundblaster cards listed in the list here :
http://www.studio-to-go.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=27&Itemid=82
but I'm not a Soundblaster specialist...

'In principle' there is all you need.
Rosegarden is a great sequencer, who can compete with a lot of commercial sequencer
Ardour is a complete audio studio
....

But... in my opinion, the question you have to ask yourself is : 'How much time am I willing to spend to learn all of this", this is time you won't spend on making music.
And there is a lot to learn, Linux itself, Studio on the go comes by default with the KDE interface which looks a lot like windows. But still it is a bit different. Also the OS is different, getting updates is different,...
In windows audio & midi software just talks to your audio card, under Linux it is done differently. Without going into details the most common system is the Jack interface. Incredible flexible, but again you'll need some time to learn it.

In my experience, the sequencer Rosegarden is pretty easy to learn, it's quit logical and works like all sequencers.
Ardour is a real professional audio multitrack recording and mixing application. But it is quit a beast to learn.

I would advise to download the Live CD, give it a try and see what you think of it.
Don't make to fast conclusions because a lot is different.

I know we have at least one member here (folderol) who is at home with Linux, I hope he will chime in here.
He knows also a couple of other Linux audio distributions.

And I hope, with this new section, we will get other Linux users here as members.

k

Looks like "studio-to-go" will support most of the features of SB Audigy soundcard - good news! And "Audacity" is included ;D

Oh, and I just realized that the operating system is included in the "studio-to-go" package, and Studio 64. Talk about a serious bargain!

Although I know I want 64-bit capability, should I be thinking 2 cores or 4?

Now that's why we need Moon for, should I call him out of his holiday ?  ::) ;D

As far as I know, are quad-core processors mainly ment for servers. And I know that the Ubuntu linux for quad-core processors is still pretty young (beta phase even ?)

I would think dual-core...

k

Hi guys. I got your messages... Actually I already knew this topic had been created as I like to take a peek on here first thin gin the morning at work :)

First of all I must say I am not a Linux Guru, only a guy with a certain tenacity (and refusal to give in to a mere machine) who believes he should tell the computer what to do, not the other way round!

One thing I've noticed is that computing hardware today is in a very similar position to TVs were in the late 60s (I was a TV repair engineer in another life) in that you can have two seeming identical machines and one can work like a dream while the other appears to be fit only as a doorstop.

Studio To Go, has already been mentioned, and I've also referred to 64studio and Musix in another thread. All of these have Non-install versions that will run from CD-ROM and I would definitely recommend trying all three - It's free, and does nothing permanent to your system. As far as I know 64studio is the only one that specifically targets 64 bit machines.

I personally use a dual core Athlon on my main machine. The benefits of dual core depend very much on how well the software is written to take advantage of this. The heart of the system - Jack - is I believe, multi-core aware as are some of the other applications (don't ask me which ones).

Most advice seems to be to avoid USB sound cards. They often don't talk nice to Linux, but more importantly their latency is much poorer than 'proper' cards. M-Audio have a particularly good reputation, but I think most good cards are well supported. If you have your mind on a particular card, try asking the distro's listed above if they know this card works.

Some people have had drive speed problems with sata hard drives, which seems a little surprising, so the general advice seems to be to stick with ide if you have the choice and are doing very intensive multitrack recording. Also advised is having a completely separate drive for the actual audio content, or if you can't manage that, at least a separate partition. This improves general access times and prevents OS and ordinary user material (which might be lots of small files) getting interleaved with big audio files.

Having said all that, I'm using a single 240G sata drive with no problems :)
I should add I don't do a lot of heavy audio processing, and I do have it partitioned something like:

15G -  / (the main OS directory)
15G - /spare (so I can set up a dual boot if I want to)
40G - /home
the rest - /music

Some final points on this massive missive :)

If you want to do general 'stuff' on the machine as well, there are art, drawing and office apps freely available.

Internet support is excellent and far more secure than 'other' systems, but bear in mind things like flash, quicktime (who needs them) are a bit of a pain to set up, and some of these don't have proper 64bit support so have to use a 32bit emulation mode.

Well thats it for now. I hope some of this helps and doesn't put anyone off!

Will,

Thanks for stepping in!

I'm thinking that a "linux guru" may not be what we need here. Tenacity will likely be our best ally in this. It would be more instructive to see what a crew of ordinary blokes can do with the software. Also, thin gin in the morning is a habit you may want to re-consider...(I'm awful - you'll get used to it  ;D)

Current software generally seems capable of using the dual core processor to good advantage, but many programs, when sensing the four cores, begin to shuttle information to each core in turn with little regard to continuity - the job ends up getting done slower, with a lot of redundant steps. Let's settle on a fast dual core processor - say, the Athlon 64 6000+ socket AM2? What kind of motherboard are you using with your AMD chip?

Oren.

I have very good experience with ASUS motherboards
They have allways been reliable for me
You could have a look here : http://www.asus.com/products.aspx?l1=3&l2=101

k

Yes,

It looks like Asus is a good choice to go with an AMD chip.

I'm going to contact a gentleman who consults for this group:

                   http://www.vlug.org/

                         about building the computer under his supervision.

Oren.

Look like a good idea, if this group is still alive....
Last news item on there site : 2003/09/19  ???

k

The organization may be out of date, but Monsieur du Toit is still around town...

...and he just agreed to supervise the hardware build, and the installation and implementation of a Linux DAW software package.

Now where did I put that cash...?

Oren.

Hmmm. Now you mention it my motherboard is an Asus - works well for me :)

Now this is an excelent plan Oren

Together with someone that knows Linux realy well, your DAW will be up & running in no time.
Even if the guy knows nothing about DAW software, you'll know that at least the system is setup correctly.

Cool

k

Hmm. We move apace !

I'll be very interested to see what setup you build. Might help me to improve my system too :)

Will,

That's the whole idea. We're looking at a Athlon 64 5600+ dual core on an Asus board, 2 gigs of ddr2 memory...

I've put a new DAW together some months ago. Some feedback on it:
I've choosen an Intell DP965LT motherboard: the choice of the chipset is straithforward; at this time Intell's processors outperforme AMD's alternatives, the 965 chipset is very stable and als support the quadprocesors if an upgrade is needed. The Intell DP965LT is one of the better motherboards if you put stability on top of your list. Mind that you need memory that run on 1.8 Volt for this board. Also, this board has 2 firewire ports.
I've considered the option of a quad procesor, but decided to "limit" to the E6700 processor. Well, limit is a bit the wrong word here, since I've found the E6700 powerfull enough for the things I do, and also, a quad processor is much more expensive in the power/price ratio. I thought it would be better to go for the E6700 and wait for prices to drop on the quads... So far I'm very happy with my choice, I'm not thinking about replacing the CPU...
The choice of the graphics card is also straightforward: passive cooled (based on a NVIDIA GeFprce 7300GT). I prefer NVIDEA over ATI. I've opted for a graphic cards that supports a native resolution of 2560 x 1600 (32 inch panels). Once prices are dropping, I'll be getting one of these (next year...)
The HD's: I've considered to put Raptor drives in my DAW, but decided not to: they are more performant, but make more noise... and I'm allergic to a noisy DAW...
The CASE: very important to have a silent case! Not the cheapest, but perferct for a DAW: http://www.paqt.co.uk/index.html

I'm running windows XP on it, not Linux. I'm using a lot of cakewalk software: I've found this software to be very, very stable (Sonar, Rapture, Dimension Pro, Project 5,...).

Evaluation of the system after some months of usage: best DAW I've build so far. Very, very, very stable (never crashed so far!), very very quiet, very very performant. I'm starting to forget I'm working on a PC since my DAW is behaving like a piece of hardware...  ;D

Forgot to mention: stay away from Vista! XP is very stable now, so there is absolutely no need to go to VISTA, not for a long time ! I did consider Linux as an operating system, but didn't wanted to miss some of the window-based tools...

Moon,

 Two of my computers run on XP Pro very nicely, one of them a dual processor pentium4 rated at 2.67 gigahertz, and using two 74 gigabyte WD 10,000 harddrives. Windoze is getting crazy with its new demands on memory and hard-drive space, so this third computer will be built from the ground up with Linux in mind. If there are problems during my initial learning period, I can do the job with one of the old computers until the issues are sorted out.

Once Linux becomes familiar to me, I'll get rid of Windoze altogether, and continually update the open-source software as improvements are made. Money I would normally spend on anti-virus software and new versions of Windoze will be donated to the various developers.

That's the plan, man!

There is something else to be considered.
What I really don't like is the way that Microsoft imposes his domination.
Example
Now we have Vista, ok I don't like it but that's my personal taste... but try to get a good laptop with XP on it now. In France it is allmost impossible. And you don't have the choice, new hardware pilots are not developed anymore for XP. In a year max. it will be impossible to buy a laptop with XP on it.

Having said that, the Linux world isn't perfect neither.
Open source development is great but it's biggest problem is organisation. There are quit a lot of similar applications developed by different developers or developper teams. There would be much more progress if those developers could combine there effort in ONE application. But as always with people there is ego involved :) I recently read an article on one of developper of the main kernel (he was the genius behind the process thread engine) who simply quit...
This has a side effect, the development is slower, you'll have to wait until some volunteer writes that pilot forthe newest XXX audio card,....
You propably will work with software that doesn't have such a nice interface as the Windows equivalent. I have a perfect example of this. On our site here and in our forum, we have the MMA software. I'm one of the beta testers and power users of MMA. MMA is the equivalent of BIAB for windows. Beside the melody &soloist function it is at least as powerfull as BIAB, IMHO it is even more powerfull. The creation of MMA style is way more then in BIAB, amongst other things. The drawback, it doesn't have a GUI. It works with standard textfiles and you have to learn all the commands, again invest your time !
And one you know it, you'll realise that it doesn't need a GUI :)
If you are interested in software like BIAB you should really have look at it. It comes with a couple of tutorials which are really good (I shouldn't say that because I wrote one of them  :-[ ). And if you have questions, MMA has his proper board here and Bob (the author of the software) or myself will be happy to help you.

And there are 2 things that new Linux users don't realize....
Linux doesn't stand for free as in no money, it stand as in free to modify it as you want as long as you give back your source. That was the case with the GPL license version 2 (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_General_Public_License )
Now there is Version 3 of the GPL and a lot of developers don't agree with that version, even Linus Torvald thinks it is not as good as version 2. This will certainly have a influence on the open source world.
And the second is that, if you make the decision of switching to Linux, you must realize that you must invest time in learning Linux ! Yes, there are now distributions with plug&play automatic update like Ubuntu which comes close to windows, but it stays Linux. And one day or another you will need that command prompt window ! So buy a book about Linux and learn it, otherwise one day you will be very frustrated.

So, what is the ideal solution ?
There is one, unless you decide to buy a Korg Oasys and abandon the pc as daw  ;D
But you'll still need a PC to post your songs here  :D

k
   

And I forgot to mention something  ::)
If you are planning to use open source software, support the developpers !
Yes, one way is by donating money, alltough most developpers do it for free.
But there a lot of ways to help them
- Write documentation or tutorials
- Beta test software for them, beside the fact that you can ask them to implement a feature that you like, you will have the joy of communicating with them. I met Bob (the autor of MMA) on the net and we became internet-friends. I did a lot of beta testing and he implemented a lot of the features I asked.
- Offer them other help, ex. we host the MMA site for free.

Simply said, get involved  8)

k

Well, besides Linux and Windows, there is still an alternative: Mac ! Operating system shares a lot of components with Linux, but it doesn't have the dissadvantages of Linux, being not many tools or no nice GUI's, installation hassle...

Still, it is a pitty we are missing great software for Linux. EnergyXT is available for Linux, but none of the other big names has something for Linux... A pitty...

P.S.: I'm still waiting for that price drop on the Oasys  ;)

I just got a heads up about this forum from Kara. Gosh, so many things happening in the world, so little time to keep up with it all :)

I didn't know anything about energyXT2 being ported to Linux. So, it makes me wonder if there is a current repository for announcements of this kind? The site http://sound.condorow.net/ used to be "the place" to check on a regular basis, but I sense that the maintainer has lost interest or run of time.

And this is a common problem for an awful lot of software as well. A developer works pretty much alone developing his newest toy, offers it to the world (for free), and then waits and waits and waits for kudos and suggestions. Usually, he/she just continues to wait. In the meantime a base of unknown users develops, but since the developer gets so little in the way of positive feedback, the project languishes.

BTW, I do hope some of you will try out MMA. I don't want to brag (too much), but I can tell you that for the kind of music I do (easy going jazz) it works just perfectly. I do gigs with the accomp. 100% MMA generated while I play my saxophones. Perfect? Nope, but the audience seems to enjoy.

This is what I was hoping for!

I don't have the background or personal inclination to get deeply involved in the world of software development, and with all this time spent lately at the computer keyboard, I miss my guitar....

But if attitude and enthusiasm  count for anything, it's happening right here. Kara, Moon, bvdp, ....it's a cold corporate world out there - let's warm it up some!

Oren.

If you're wondering what all this MMA stuff is about, visit the forum on this site. I've just put one of my compositions up on my site http://mellowood.ca/music/recordings/index.html More to test my new Zoom H4 recorder, but does a nice job of demoing MMA with a solo sax. Let me know what you think.

bvdp,

I live just down the road from the PG Music corporation here in Victoria BC Canada. I know the people and the software. They are neighbours, so I use their product, but when the computer goes open-source, all that will change.

MMA sounds like it is at least the equal of BIAB. The backing tracks generated will reflect the skill of the user. For me, the software is most valuable as a songwriting tool, and I'm very happy there is an open-source alternative to my current corporate
backing-track program.

You have a good thing here; keep up the good work!

Oren.

@bvdp

You get a real hang of recording, your recording has improved a lot !
So , if I understand it right you recorded the audio comming out of the speakers, sounds good.
What it misses, since I know the sound of your sax :) is the attack of the sound, you know when you blow in it. For next recording it would perhaps be a good idea to use another mix in front of the sax where you can then mix the direct sound with the other one.
If you would do a recording like that, send the tracks to me and i'll show how to to mix them

@Oren
For creating backing tracks, MMA is as powerfull as BIAB and the stylecreator is, alltough text orientated, very powerfull. When you start to use it don't hesitate to ask questions here, as you know now, Bob the autor of the software is active here and I know it pretty well. There a couple of good documents with MMA, a good manual, a getting started document, a tutorial how to create styles.  There is allso a tool that converts Yamaha keyboard styles to MMA styles, it's not perfect but it works well with older yamaha styles (no latest psr & tyros) and there are lot of free styles on the net. It's a perfect start to create your proper style.
Anyway, to give you an idea how MMA works
This is a simple example of how you create a style

//Tutorial style for MMA

Author Kara Music Production - Rony Steelandt

SeqClear
SeqSize 1
Timesig 4 4

Begin Drum Define
   D1 1 8 90 ; 2.5 8 90 ; 4 8 90
   S1 2 8 90 ; 4 8 90
   CH1 1 8 90
   C1 CH1 * 8
End

Begin Bass Define
   B1 1 4+8 1 90 ; 2.5 8 1 90 ; 3 8 1 90 ; 3.5 4 1 90 ; 4.5 8 1 90
   L1 1 2+4 1 90
End

Begin Chord Define
   C1 1 2+4 80 80 80 ; 4 4 80 80 80
End

Begin Drum-Kick
   Tone KickDrum1
   Sequence D1
End

Begin Drum-Snare
   Tone SnareDrum1
   Sequence S1
End

Begin Drum-HH
   Tone ClosedHiHat
   Sequence C1
End

Begin Bass-Simple
   Voice AcousticBass
   Sequence B1
End

Begin Bass-LeftHandPiano
   Voice Piano1
   Sequence L1
   Octave 3  // This a new command, but simple to understand
End

Begin Chord-RightHandPiano
   Voice Piano1
   Sequence C1
   Octave 5
End

DefGroove Myrock1

And creating a song couldn't be simplier...
Groove Myrock1
1   Am
2   D
3   Am
4   Am
5   Am
6   D
7   Am
8   Am
9   Dm
10   G
11   Dm
12   Dm / / E7
13   Am
14   D
15   Am
16   Am


k

Hey thanks!

I can work with that  8)

Oh, this is NOT meant to be an example of a mixed, studio recording. It's just a demo to show how easy it is to use the H4. Yes, I just put the H4 on a table in front of the speakers playing the MMA file and played the sax. One take. No mixing! And, considering that it took less than 5 minutes to "produce" the recording ... well, I'm pleased.

I certainly DO NOT think that recordings of this type will replace professional sound engineers :)

Way to go!

Do keep is informed of your first impressions.

Prepare yourself to enter a new world  :o ;D

k

Adventure game:
You have entered a maze of little twisty turny passages...

Windows:
There may be exits but we're not telling you.

Apple:
There are exist North, South, East, West.

(advanced)
There is also a light switch.

Linux:
There are exist North, South, East, West, Up, Down.
There is also a light switch.

(advanced)
All the directions are re-definable and you can create your own exits.
The light switch can also set varying light intensity and colour.
If you type 'man Adventure' you will get a map of the maze but will need to sacrifice a chicken at dawn before you can understand it.

Sorry guys. I couldn't resist it :)

I'll get my coat...

Will,

I'll supply the ckicken..... ;D

Andrew du Toit, a local Linux expert, came by today to tune up my two existing computers and deliver the discs for Studio 64. We put the "live" disc in the old Athlon 1700+ computer and had a look around - very cool! Almost all music-related software, with only a few basic tools thrown in to make a complete operating system. He offered to download and prepare Ubuntu Studio also...my head is about to burst with the handy tips the guy was dispensing as he worked.

We worked out the configuration for an ideal Linux build, and he'll return to help me load it up once I have the computer assembled.

The Linux thing is such a relief after wrestling with windoze all these years. Refreshing. I'm hoping to organize the set-up so even a guitar player can do it at home  ::)

This sounds very promising indeed!

I'm particulary interested in what you think about the Unbuntu Studio.

Keep us posted!

Moon

I'd be interesting to hear about ubuntu studio. It's the only one I've had no contact with at all, although I would think it very unlikely I'd change now. I'm far to familiar and comfortable with 64studio.

There are only so many life 'enhancing' changes one can make  ;D

Both the Linux specialist sales rep at our neighbourhood computer store, and my friendly Linux consultant, suggested Ubuntu Studio because of the active community supporting the Ubuntu Linux organization. The Studio 64 version delivered by my Linux consultant was AMD specific, and wouldn't install on my Pentium 4 dual-core computer.... :'(

The sales rep offered to assemble an Athlon-equipped computer for me with Linux-friendly components, and install Ubuntu Studio as the operating system (rather than Vizta home premium). He's already done it for another customer. Could it get any easier? I'm going to have to talk with this guy at some length about his hardware recommendations. Then if it looks plausible, lay down the cash and bring that puppy home! (the computer, not the salesman ::)) If things don't work out with Ubuntu, I can always fall back on Studio 64 and my main man Folderol... ;D

Oren.

This sounds like a very good solution Oren.
It will be a very good start for a 'Linux novice', at least you'll know for sure that the system is well build, installed and fully Linux compatible.

k

I really am very surprised you've had problems with 64studio on the pentium. Can you be more specific? I've mentioned this on the 64studio users list to see if anyone else has had problems, and if so, how they got round them.

Not really an issue here  ;D. My Linux guy downloaded the AMD-specific package from Studio 64, thinking we were going to install the operating system on a dual core Athlon 64. Which we eventually are, but I have to buy it first! A simple miscommunication ::).

Thanks for caring - we'll get this baby off the ground in good order, in good time....

Oren.

Jonathan at DTI Computers has selected the components for our Linux-specific build.
A brief overview: Athlon 64 6000+ dual core processer, Asus board, 4 gigs of Kingston DDR2 RAM, 520 watt P/S with 12mm quiet fan, a quiet case that Moon recommended, LG DVD burner, and a 500gig 16mb-buffer SATA2 H/D.

He tells me that Ubuntu Studio may not be 64 bit at this time, and we would be wiser to go with 64 Studio to utilize its documented 64-bit real-time kernel. OK.

Total price (minus the M-Audio 2496 card which I already have): $1025.00, 15% tax included.

M-Audio is the most recommended Linux-friendly card. Should I go with my old 2496, or buy a more full-featured model?

Looks like a good configuration with quality components with good reputation.
I'm a bit surprised that you put only 1 HD in it ?

k

Don't get me started  ;D!

I have a 320gig external H/D, and another fast computer with two H/Ds in it, all for music processing. Plus, I like to back up my work on re-writable DVDs and keep them separate from the computer area, just to be safe.

With that in mind, the second H/D would seem a little extravagant, n'est pas  :D?

Well, as you know I use a 2496, and use it to feed in the Sound Canvas and SY35. I also used it for the one (ad only) voice recording I ever made.

It sounds fine to me, but then I'm not exactly a spring chicken so others may hear defects I don't.

I've heard it said that for heavy audio recording work you should have two hard drives, one for all the software, set-up data & other crud, the other drive solely for the raw audio recording.

The reasoning is supposed to be that there is less likelihood of timing problems with hard disk seeks. Now whether this is realistic or not I couldn't say - I only have 1 HD in my ystem :)

Yes, Will,

I received a call today from Jonathon at DTI, and we're going ahead with the Audiophile 2496 and 64 Studio. He's done some nosing around, and Ubuntu Studio still works on a 32-bit kernel, and Creative Labs stubbornly avoids developing drivers that are Linux compatible.

I'll slide down there today with the 2496 and the cash.
Looks like you and I will be barking up the same tree, old son... :D

Oren.

Judging from what I've been reading about AMD and their recently acquired ati AND release of GPU specs and software, there could soon be a lot of pressure on other hardware manufacturers to follow suit - watch the penguin really fly then!

A change of plans - the new computer is being built in an Antec Sonata quiet case with 120mm fan on a 500 watt power supply. The Sonata is a case the tech is comfortable with, having done several builds in it, and he tells me it is nearly impossible to determine if the computer is running, without looking at the lights.

The computer will be ready, Linux installed and tested, Thursday September 20th.

Oren.

You are exactly like me Oren, I hate computer noise in my studio  ;D

Moon knows the Antec boxes pretty well.

k

Kara,

I was going to give away the old Athlon 1700+ because it's slow and sounds like a washing machine :D, but the technician suggested I install some quiet fans, get rid of XP Pro, and run it on Linux.

The Linux O/S will make maximum use of the existing RAM (512mb), take up less room on the hard drive, and streamline operations for faster performance. Perfect for downloading/uploading all the big files that pass through here, leaving the other two computers available for music processing.

Too much fun, really... 8)

Oren.

Sounds like you made a good move. I'll be interested to hear how
slick it is once you get going with it.

Cheers,

Wyatt

Yes, great cases, not perfect silent, but great. I own a Antec NSK2400. I've changed the side cooler for a better result. This case contains my Linux server (data and backup server) and makes very little noise. Considering the price tag, this case comes highly recommended.

My case is an Antec Take 3. Very quiet. Solid too!

Steady Lad.

Don't want to hear you done gone and O.D.ed ;D

Yes, good case!
Lian has also some great cases, but there are more expensive than Antec (you pay for the looks as well!)

Our man Jonathon at DTI computers has hit a snag. 64 Studio won't load - something about the "xwindows" function...not functioning? He's busily reconfiguring Ubuntu (his personal favourite) with a real-time 64 bit kernel - ouch!

Being immediately out of my depth, I bailed and came here  :D. If there are any takers with an idea about how to pull 64 Studio out of the fire....

Oren.

Strange, Xwindows is the graphics server of linux and is pretty standard for all linux distributions AFAIK

But he is the expert....

k

Guaranteed, he'll be more of an expert after successfully completing this little maneuver  ;D.

This very puzzling. The only problem I've ever heard of with 'X' on any debian based distro is not recognising obscure graphics cards or monitors, but even then you should get SOME display - prolly limited to 800*640 256 colours. Then if you have to, you can edit the monitors file by hand to get sensible defaults.

So, Will....

I'll try and get Jonathon to log on here and set the problem out in more explicit terms. This is a valuable exercise, and everyone will benefit. Any pearls you may be able to send his way, once he's laid out the situation, will be invaluable 8).

Oren.

The way it's going...

Jonathon is installing Ubuntu Ultimate edition. With his real-time mod of the 64-bit kernel. Cool, eh? The computer is up and running - he just wants to be sure the drivers are in place for my old M-Audio Audiophile 2496 card.
He tells me this edition has every possible Linux toy, streamlined to work as one big happy family.

I don't want to get overly cosmic here, but if the flow is with Ubuntu, then who am I to buck the tide? Jonathan seems to work intuitively, and set 64 Studio aside early in the game when it showed signs of incompatability with our little project.

He's my main man on this, so I'll go with his recommendations.
I have the discs for 64 Studio, and may use it as the operating system on the old Athlon machine (once my brain unscrambles :D), to replace XP Pro.

Today I'm installing a router to go with the new high-speed web hook-up my ISP just provided. Two hardwired computers (three, when the new one arrives), my wife's wireless laptop, and our broadband telephone, all sharing the same system.

Here goes...

Oren.

Jonathan is nearly finished re-compiling the 64-bit Ubuntu kernel. When examining the real-time feature, he realized they are still using their 32-bit real-time "utility", so he has upgraded it to 64 bit before incorporating it into the new kernel.

I'll pick up the computer next week after he's had lots of time to put it through its paces. My mother always said, you can't hurry a good thing  ;D.

Oren.

It looks like that guy realy knows what he's doing  8)
You'll have a great audio workstation  ;)

k

All this sitting on the edge of my chair is really doing my back in :-\

Will,

Try pacing around like an expectant father  :D. Works for me...although a little hard on the shoe leather!


Kara,

As I understand it, this is the way Linux evolves. Jonathon will send his compiled kernel architecture to the "new software" page of Ubuntu's main website, and it will show up on a future version of Ubuntu Studio.

Oren.

True, since it is al open source, it's a matter of colllaborating and sharing
One of the biggest strengths of open source projects.

k

Finishing touches:

The kernel has been re-compiled as real-time 64 bit. Now, all that remains to be done is to remove multiple instances of Grub that were deployed, died in the line of duty, and were replaced by fresh Grubs until one finally succeeded in, er...doing what Grubs do... ???

Oren.

Yeah allmost finish

Grub is actually the bootloader from Linux.
Here you can read all about it, it's allways interesting to know how your system actually works : http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/grub/grub.htm

k

Kara,

Got the website, thanks! I'm going to have to learn all of this in order to work with Linux effectively, and the prospect of the challenge is oddly attractive to me.

Never thought I'd see the day :D,

Oren.

Be careful Oren, the programming bug has no vaccine.

Music and computer building have a lot in common.

The next tune/build will always be the best.
There is no such thing as a 'finished' tune or system.

I'm in an ever worse position. I actually do a small amount of programming. I'm also into electronics, and have done quite major DIY on my home and garden.

I have no hope  :-\

The penguin has landed...

The RAM is Kingston DDR2 800, 4 gigabytes.

The processor is an Athlon 64X2 6000+, 3 gigahertz

and, you can see my old M-Audio Audiophile 2496 soundcard in there.

It is, indeed, quiet. About the same fan/harddrive noise as my wife's new Hewlett Packard laptop.

So far, I've had a lovely view of the desktop... had to call Jonathon to find out my user name and password.

I'm having a brain meltdown  :D,

Oren.

Yeah, so it is alive ?  8)
Open the bottles  ;D

k

Kara,

Like landing on some foreign planet. Strange and beautiful. Already received ten updates over the last 14 hours....Ubuntu grows.

Next I want to locate Jack, and get  Ardor and Audacity running. Then test the M-Audio soundcard.

Work, work, work,  ::)

Oren.

Haha..;D

Wow we are getting ambitious...
Audacity running will be easy and Jack isn't THAT difficult to understand.
But Ardour... better take a week holliday to study it ;)

k

Ah! Progress. Good to see :D

I think getting Jack up and running is a priority, but it shouldn't really present any difficulties. Once you have that in place everything else can use it as a patchbay.

I've got to agree with Kara though. Your first efforts with Ardour can be arduous.

... I'll get my coat  :-\

Will,

This Ubuntu Ultimate edition is huge. The development is overseen by a character who calls him/herself "TheeMahn". Every imaginable software tool, several very advanced multi-player games, and on-line help menu that is gargantuan, and constant updates/upgrades.

I haven't found Jack yet, and the most recent Ubuntu version of Audacity must be downloaded from their resource catalogue.

There's a lot of learning to be done, but with this level of sophistication and user assistance, I can't imagine ever returning to windoze or mac.

Oren.

The trick with a distro like ubunto is to NOT get sidetracked by all the shiny toys ;D

In most distros Jack is managed with the qjackctl front-end which (surprise surprise) has a 1/4in jack plug as its icon  :)

Thanks, Sage!

(you can put your coat away now  :D)

So,

The old Athlon 1700+ workhorse is now history, and as I accustom myself to the Linux machine, my pentium dual-core unit running at 2.67 gigahertz is taking up the slack.

progress: - finally found how to open a terminal window  ::)
               - in the process of downloading and installing countless updates that have
                           accrued in the last six weeks
               - got the two computers hooked up to the same monitor and mouse so I
                           can switch back and forth with both units running.

next: - find Jack
         - download Audacity
         - test the soundcard.

This is a howl  ;D!

Oren

Glad to hear you're making such good progress..
..I been wonderin.  ;D

Wyatt

Wyatt,

Progress is "good", but not fast  ;D!

The gentleman who assembled this hot-rodded version of Ubuntu Ultimate for me knows Linux, but not audio, so:
             - the machine and O/S combined are like a rock - very, very stable
                       ...and fast  :o  the 3gigahertz dual processor chip just screams
             - several key features were left out of the build, but (hold your breath) I
                       just succeeded in retrieving and installing them - yeah, ME!
                     the programs: qjackctl (thanks, folderol!), Audacity, Hydrogen, and
                                                 the LADSPA plugins.

And you ain't seen Audacity, 'til you've seen it in Linux...woh!

So now I can finally set up Jack - oh happy day...

Oren.

Steady, boy! Steady ;D

Once you have jack under control, you might like to take a look at jamin - quite a nice three band compressor & graphic equaliser. It is rumoured the original designers were RL audio engineers.

Hmmm, meterbridge is another useful level indicator...

then there's...

No, let's stop there shall we :)

Hi Oren,

Thanks for the update..I'm glad to hear you're on top of things.


Sounds like you do a good job of persevering.  :)


Awesome, Dude! Now there is something I'd like to see.



Keep up the good work. I'm glad you escaped the Windoze dungeon. There is hope.  ;D

Wyatt

Will, Wyatt,

JACK is in operation and the M-Audio 2496 is much easier to configure with the Linux interface.

I just beat my brains out with Hydrogen (boom-chicka, boom-chick, boom-chickaboom....) then tweaked the resulting pattern in Audacity.

Flawless.

Now to record some analog audio....Ardour is calling  :P

Oren.

(got those recommends, Will - jamin & meterbridge - thanks again)

Congratulations, I'm happy for you.

Now crank us out some music bradda..
..you been missed.  ;D

Wyatt

Ardour is going to take some study, but...

Fortunately I've been working  with Audacity in windoze, and it meshes very nicely with the 2496 card in recording analog audio and playing back the multiple tracks. There is a latency issue, but it will require some adjustment before the monitored tracks sync up with track being recorded.

So it's all in place. Linux is the answer to Vista. For all intents, windoze is history.

Time for a nap  :D.

+1

So, what's a linux, anyway?

That's an understatement Oren :D

k

Fred,
The guy who began the development of this open-source operating system, his name was Linus...hence the eventual O/S moniker.

Kara,
Ardour appears to be far less of a challenge than tackling the initial steps of learning to work with Linux, so confidence is high... 8)

Taking the step into open-source software is only a matter of committing to the idea, and following through. Learning the concepts in bite-size servings, and applying them as you're able, will eventually yield the most amazing results. No particular aptitude or inspiration is necessary.

The way this new computer performs with the Ubuntu Linux O/S has me thinking that XP Pro residing in my dual processor Pentium-equipped machine had better be replaced with Linux.
And then there's my wife's new laptop with Vista - a fast processor, lots of RAM, and a real slow-poke :-\ -  prone to freezing up, slow to start up, and slow to accomplish even simple tasks ???....hmmm

Oren.

 I'd think twice before going after the wife's system  :o.. let her watch you sail along; she'll eventually want it too.

Can you still chimp files in linux?

A dangerous venture
1. I would never touch the laptop of the lady, if it doesn't work like she WANTS it to work, she'll be all over me.
2. Watch out for hardware of laptops, be sure to check out that pilots for linux are available !

k

OK, OK,

I'll leave the laptop alone!  :D

Linux supports a tool called FLAC which is similar, although I haven't tried it yet.

MonkeysAudio will not work in Linux....yet.

Oren.

FWIW FLAC stands for 'Free Lossless Audio Codec' - but you knew that anyway ;)

 I hadn't heard of MonkeysAudio before. Is it completely free, as in, no patents etc.?

Yes- free and lossless.  I'm sure it's patented so you can't go sell it and make money off of their efforts, but it's free to use...
 check their site; it shows comparisons to other formats.
 One thing I like about monkeysaudio is it is VERY fast, and efficient. 
http://www.monkeysaudio.com

Good news is that the source code is freely available, so one of those linux wizards could easily port it over..

As I understand the situation, the original developer of Monkey's Audio has made the source code available for further improvements, but licensed the software in such a way that it cannot be developed for Linux. The open-source community typically conducts it's activities under the GNU license agreement, and the new Monkey's Audio licensing scheme is not compatible with GNU. Consequently, development for Windoze and Mac is encouraged, but improvements that would make the codec function in the Linux environment are pointless.

Repeated requests by the open-source community for a revised agreement that will allow them to adapt the software for Linux, have been ignored.

Oren.

Bummer..so how does FLAC compare to the chimps?

Wyatt

If you go to the monkysaudio link in my post above, they compare it to FLAC.
FLAC works. Just a little larger filesize in the long run.

I saw that same thread about monkey not responding the requests from linux people..bummer.

Thanks Bob.

Wyatt

Right now, JACK is getting all my attention. It's one thing to get it set up for the basic connections, but there are some wild and wonderful combinations possible. Just joined the JACK site and am working my way through the manual.

Time well spent, I hope!

True, Jack is wonderfull.
It's actually a combination of  virtual midi cables (like MIDI yoke on windoze) and rewire.
Very powerfull

k

After working with my hot-rodded version of Ubuntu Ultimate Edition for 3 months now, the pitfalls of  using an operating system designed by a "gamer" (Thee Mahn) and optimized for general personal computing are becoming apparent. Although many of the musician's tools work well, some music programs perform in a hesitant fashion, and some won't load at all. Now, Canonical Ltd. (which provides commercial support for Ubuntu operating systems) has informed the developer of Ultimate Edition that he must remove "Ubuntu" from all product labelling because the direction he has taken this distribution is no longer in line with the Ubuntu philosophy of software development.

Next project for me: load up a new hard drive with "Ubuntu Studio", and see if it is a more appropriate operating system for running my audio applications.

There's another guy (mod) over on Audiominds that seems to have a pretty good handle on Linux, too, in case you need any other help.
 He's involved in this post on using Linux for music, and is named elwood blues.
Not the same guy as here..
http://audiominds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=5435

Nice guy, willing to help.

Thanks, Pardner!

Elwood from Germany...I'll see what he has to say...

Hmmm. Sad to hear you're having problems.

I wonder if this is time to have another look at 64studio? I can't remember exactly what the problem was you had before, display problems wasn't it? In any case I can't see they would be insurmountable and this distro does give you a lot of the stuff already correctly configured.

Hmmm. Sad to hear you're having problems.

Will,
I went into this armed with some advice from "Doc Folderol" regarding patience and perserverance, treating it as a learning experience. With this attitudinal orientation "problems" morph into opportunities for learning. (except when I get mad and start throwing things...)

I wonder if this is time to have another look at 64studio? I can't remember exactly what the problem was you had before, display problems wasn't it? In any case I can't see they would be insurmountable and this distro does give you a lot of the stuff already correctly configured.

Believe me, sailor, I've been looking very carefully at 64studio. The problems loading 64studio on this machine (which is, by design, remarkably similar to yours 8)) were not actually mine - they were Jonathon's (the builder). I'm not clear on where the snags occurred...

I am responsible for 4 computers, one all-purpose, two for music, and my wife's laptop. All of these will eventually run on Linux, and I want to develop my skills with this in mind. Ubuntu is currently available in three versions: studio (audio/video), server, and general-purpose. They all use the same kernel and Gnome desktop, and are updated/upgraded as a "family", allowing a user to comfortably work with his/her various special-purpose computers. The Ubuntu concept seems like a well-integrated Linux solution, and my new music computer is rock solid with this Ubuntu-based Ultimate Edition distribution.

My personal inclination is to jump right into 64studio, but in an uncharacteristic fit of rational thinking....it seems reasonable to try Ubuntu Studio with the hope of being able to establish an Ubuntu theme across the four computers. If it proves to be substandard with regards to audio processing, then I can invoke 64studio and work through whatever installation glitches may exist.

Am I wimping out here ::)?




Will

It seems you have a pretty good plan of action here in reality. I would add that both 64studio and ubunto are derived from debian, and both have gnome as the default window manager.

Mind you, I've been experimenting with a number of other distros recently, mostly for office-based stuff.

Saying your computer runs 'linux' is like saying your car has an 'engine'.

Will,

Here's the new computer with a freshly erased hard drive, and Ubuntu Studio newly installed. Comes with a thoughtful whack of audio software, including all of your favourites, and a few I've never even heard of before. Currently running six of the larger JACK-connected audio applications at 64 frames, with only one x-run occurring (when introducing one of the apps).
Firefox and Synaptic package manager also in operation concurrently with audio applications - apparently no conflicts.

If initial impressions are any indication, we've arrived.... :-

Oren.

 :-   :-   :-   :-   :-   :-   :-   :-   :-   :-   :-   :-   :-   :-   :-   :-

Cool,

Wyatt

Great news Oren  8)

k

Oooo. That's a latency of less than 3mS :;

Hmmmm <thinks>

You have both Rosegarden and ZynAddSubFX on there don't you.

Perhaps you might like to try a little experiment if you have the time and inclination.

Here a a zip of a Zyn. parameter file, and an RG file. It's not a terribly wonderful tune, but from 2:15 onwards it can really stress a system. I'd be interested to hear what latency you can get with it ::)

Excellent turn of events partner!
3ms is quick. Very nice.
Sounds like you may have just crossed the line from student to mentor..

Wyatt, Kara, Will, Bob,

Thanks for your continued interest and encouragement! The hard part is now over - from here on in it's all wine and roses  ;D

Bob,
Part of the reason I undertook this maneuver is so I'd be able to help our friends make the transition from XP to Linux when the time is right. My inclination to learn in a methodical manner makes it easy for me to pass on information in conveniently assimilable bits. (wait 'til you see this stuff in action... :o)

Will,
I may have to approach you for a step-by-step on how to load those files into Zyn and Rosy. I'll give it a go on my own, first. Thanks for the opportunity to put the system through its paces.

What's that in the air...? Oooo, the sweet smell of success :D

Oren.

Hmmmm
The Dynabolic site that El pointed us to says my xbox will run it using ver 1.4.1
This could get interesting.  If I could use it for actual audio apps instead of just as an FTP storage space that would be really cool.  Another helper music computer.  Free.

It's me again :)


Well, Oren, I thought it best to carry on here rather than hijack Wyatt's topic completely!

It is strange how you don't realise you have got into a different set of habits when changing OS. Some things don't change much. Some are not so convenient. Some are more convenient.

A few things I have configured on my system is for clicking on a window pane to not bring it to the top, and moving it by its title bar to not take the keyboard/mouse focus. Also scrollwheel forward in the title bar rolls the window up to just the title bar and scroll back rolls it back down again like a blind. I find these setting combined, massively increase my productivity.

I think you highlighted one of the principle differences with any Open Source package though, in that you look for solutions to problems instead of waiting (hoping?) for the vendor to supply them.

I'll leave you for a while to find time to try out that composition. But if you really do get stuck just yell. One hint. Start Zyn. before Rose. :)

Seriously..no problem at all..I am in limbo now until I'm not..and you guys are more than welcome!!

Wyatt

After charging around my new computer, finally settling on Ubuntu Studio as the O/S, and then throwing all I could at it "to see what it can do"....I lapsed into an odd moment of sobriety, and decided it was time to stop dorking around. ::) Anomalies were showing up, and it began to be difficult to remember what accessory software I'd thrown in, which I'd removed, and what adjustments I'd made.

So, into the computer store to have the 500 GB hard drive completely sanitized, then a fresh install of Ubuntu Studio. Download all the updates, and determine how to proceed...

The basic O/S chores have always worked nicely - cool!
JACK, Ardour, and Hydrogen will provide me with a solid place to start.
Rosegarden and ZynAddSubFX (and maybe Qsynth) can be added one I'm conversant in the first three.

Ardour seems like an ideal recording/mixing/mastering application. If Ardour needs additional capacity to be an effective mastering tool, adding JAMin via JACK may be wise. I'm still not clear as to why one would keep Audacity around - seems redundant to me.... 

It will be months before I can execute tests like the one Will thoughtfully supplied to see how well the system handles high-demand tasks. Working with the basic tools and keeping the software clean and organized is the approach that suits my personality. Looks like play-time is over (but it was fun!) ;)

Oren.

Oren,

Sounds like a plan to me..mess around to get a feel for the territory, then simplify matters so that the project is approachable.

Sounds like you have quite a powerful setup there. Keep up the good work.

Wyatt

Wyatt,

Yup! Messing around is now officially over, and simplification is the next item on the menu  ;D

Perhaps the biggest challenge is making the choices.
Under Windows, there are a lot of ways to accomplish a task, sufficient to accommodate most tastes in workflow. Linux just gets mind-boggling - and if you don't like the existing options, you can sit right down and program your own version of how it should be done.

Any word on the new build?

Oren.

I was supposed to take delivery last Friday..but all the parts haven't arrived, even yet.

So the time-table is definitely in no-mans land right now. I have been able to do a little
toward prepping for the file transfers, but only precious little at that.

Like the guy said, "Patience is what you use when impatience is no longer working."

I will update when I get a clue.

Wyatt

Well it's probably not a bad idea to do a full re-install after your first play time, but I wouldn't have gone to the trouble of a complete disk wipe. Most distros ask you if you want to reformat partitions anyway, and they always reformat the root one - where the main system files are.

As a general rule there is no overhead to having unused programs installed, apart from a very marginal slow-down on first starting - remember there is no registry to get fouled up.

I still haven't been able to make much sense out of Ardour, but have used Audacity quite a lot. I find it very useful for quick editing, 'top-and-tail', haircut (fast lookahead limiter), and normalising amplitudes.

P.S.
Playtime is never 'over' ;D

Well it's probably not a bad idea to do a full re-install after your first play time, but I wouldn't have gone to the trouble of a complete disk wipe. Most distros ask you if you want to reformat partitions anyway, and they always reformat the root one - where the main system files are.

For reasons unclear to me, booting from CD had become problematic  ???

As a general rule there is no overhead to having unused programs installed, apart from a very marginal slow-down on first starting - remember there is no registry to get fouled up.

Cool!

I still haven't been able to make much sense out of Ardour, but have used Audacity quite a lot. I find it very useful for quick editing, 'top-and-tail', haircut (fast lookahead limiter), and normalising amplitudes.

Once I've learned Ardour, I'm going to try and get it to do everything Audacity has done for me in the past. Flitting back and forth from one tool to another tends to go against my grain ;D

P.S.
Playtime is never 'over' ;D

Don't I know it!

Hmm yes and no....
I'm playing at the moment with ardour and have some first conclusions.
Yes :
It is very powerfull once you get used to it. It works a lot like protools or actually like a hardware mixing desk. Apart from some strange implementation, busses and sends are realy strange in ardour IMHO.
No :
Despite the fact that the latest version is version 2.0, it still has some bugs !
I've lost a complete test project, the project was working fine, saved it and on reload Ardour just said that it couldn't read the project file !
Something i hate obviously, i don't realy trust it at the moment, especialy because there was no reason at all to have a corrupted project file.
Yesterday I found another bug. I tried to bounce a track to audio and Ardour just quit ! No message, no warning just shutdown ?!
Luckily when restarting Ardour, I could reload the project and everything was fine, but still it is a bug.

Don't ditch Audacity yet, you could need it :)

k

Ditch?? :D

Great use of good North American vernacular!

OK, so I'll think of Audacity as a back-up for Ardour.

It seems odd to me that several professional engineers/producers are putting aside ProTools in favour of Ardour because of its versatility and stability. Be sure to keep me informed about Ardour's performance - I'm hoping these are just initial difficulties that crop up as the system "settles in".

After a few months of intermittent tinkering with Ardour, I can start to see the general shape of the program, and it is massive :o
With my severely limited background in music-making software, there was really no opportunity for intuitive leaps. So, slogging away at the manual, going at it in little bits - and taking long breaks between sessions to let the ideas settle into some kind of cohesive order - has proven to be my most productive strategy.

Suffice to say that as I'm finally grasping the larger concepts involved, it's becoming clear that now  the real work begins: learning the fine points.
Good thing I'm so pig-headed :;

True it is massive, and once you get the concept it's very powerfull.
Now you'll have to learn the thinks not to do :)

1 -> Don't rename a track once you have audio on it. The perfect way to corrupt your project file  >:D

Let me write that down.... :D

Resolute determination.   ;)

Wyatt

If that means too ornery to say "quit" then we'll go with it.... :D

Yep..if its anything like mine..its an extra bone in the head..generally stuck crosswise.  ;D

Have you reported this to the developers? It might be a bug that hasn't been noticed before.

I think that's one I'll write down  ;D

 Welcome to the club, Will.  :D

Wyatt